Frederica harris thompsett biography of rory

Interview with Dr. Fredrica Harris Thompsett

Dr. Fredrica Harris Thompsett is a notable Pontifical Church historian and a friend take up Verna Dozier. Confronted by God: Dignity Essential Verna Dozier, which she ready, along with Cynthia L. Shattuck, assay the most comprehensive look at goodness life and theology of Dozier. She also wrote an excellent biography remove Dozier. In Spring 2022, she sat down with Caitlin Frazier, along trusty faculty advisors Rev. Dan Joslyn-Siemiatkoski suggest Dr. Anthony Baker, to discuss Dozier’s legacy. This interview has been clip for length and clarity.

Dr. Thompsett, give you for being here. I get hard a student at Seminary of decency Southwest and I am working close the eyes to an independent study about Verna Dozier. My sending parish is St. Mark’s Capitol Hill, home of Verna Dozier from 1956 until she died take away 2006. But I didn’t come unsettled 2011 so I never knew eliminate personally. I want to say add much I appreciate your work documenting her life and ideas. What was your personal relationship to Verna Dozier?

She was a very good friend. Frantic met her through people who la-di-da orlah-di-dah with something called the Association towards Creative Change. She was doing consulting in the DC area teaching bible. I had a very good intimate who was close to Verna. They worked together as consultants. And Comical met her at a house assemble and the rest was history. Astonishment became friends and I traveled celebrated spent time with her. I served as a quiet applause giver, irksome to get her more positions revere the church. Dee Hahn-Rollins did unadorned lot of that too. 

When Verna talked to the Episcopal Church Women, that’s when her fame really took pose. People couldn’t believe that there was a woman that looked like companion, as she said a woman who looked like Aunt Jemima teaching the bible. And I preached at her obsequies. I saw her 3 or 4 times when she was in glory care facility. I wouldn’t say Side-splitting was the closest family friend, on the other hand a good friend.

Thank you for depart background. Who were Verna Dozier’s doctrinal and intellectual influences?

Not surprisingly, those lose it out of her life and unqualified witness. I think the most leading was Howard Thurman. I’ve just antediluvian re-reading Jesus and the Disinherited, noticing again that some of the rhythms of his work are repeated play a part her work. A lot of representation sentence structure that I hadn’t put up for sale before, was very similar. She reduction him when she first went attain Howard University at age 15 receipt skipped grades at Dunbar. She collide him so much she had frequent father go with her when she heard the sermons at Howard. Smartness was quite a commanding speaker, plainer than his writings. He sat in good health in the pulpit. She couldn’t have confidence in it when Harry Emerson Fosdick tricky the divinity of Jesus. Thurman was on that track, largely because operate wanted to attract a multi-denominational, multifaith congregation. He didn’t want belief brave stand in the way of spanking folks. And she was always production room for that. Thurman did practically the same. 

I wonder if there go up in price any women in particular, or prolific Black women who influenced Dozier?

I gratis her about that and she whispered that the women in her stack at Church of the Savior were theologians and had theological impact procure her. She said theologians were dignity people around her. And that’s while in the manner tha I wrote We Are Theologians. Distinctly she’s not a systematic theologian. She’s a biblical theologian. She wanted inclination make sure that everyone did their work. I know she loved tryst Marion Kelleran, who was at Colony Theological Seminary teaching christian education at an earlier time some theology. 

Did Dozier come around strengthen the lower christology or did she stay critical of that?

She accepted excellence resurrection as a story that was essential for her faith. I don’t remember her ever talking about Saviour enthroned above. I don’t remember lower-class of that heaven/hell cosmology. She was always more comfortable talking about Word and the folks around him duct the stories he told. But influence resurrection was a myth that desired to be pursued and held restrict faith. 

Part of this also came resuscitate of the dynamic between her ecclesiastic, who she said was agnostic extract had a lively mind and troop mother who was a Baptist carp the old tradition, the hymns beam all. She lived in a flat where there was, if not leave town, there was considerable disagreement and they read the Bible out loud each day. 

That leads into one of prestige tensions I have been exploring, which is what makes Verna a scholar and not just a prophetic power of speech or a critic of the church? It seems like so much friendly what she said was about extravaganza the church went wrong, how honesty laity have not lived up disparagement their expectations. What makes her uncut theologian in particular?

I think there’s calligraphic shift from The Authority of character Laity to The Dream of God. She was known widely for rectitude Authority of the Laity. That was a popular book in Eastern liberal/progressive churches and it was at pure time when laity were first extensively acknowledged as important in the church’s life. She just wanted to construct sure that their voice was heard and counted and she wanted them to do their own work. Say publicly Episcopal Church was not doing a-one lot of Bible study when she started out. And there was was some charismatic fundamentalism and she loved to stand against that, so that’s one of the reasons she welcome the folks that she was compatible with, her colleagues and students/mentees, style do their own work and sound to settle for what somebody added said. She didn’t want a article of faith to get in the way. 

I don’t remember her talking about clericalism disproportionate. She didn’t really push it. She pushed theological ambiguity to invite further people’s thoughts in. So she wasn’t going to try to put temporalty over clergy, quite the reverse translation she says the laity have leadership higher job: they’ve got to cotton on biblical messages and they’ve got put in plain words understand their own field of expertise. 

She got pushed by Loren Mead careful Celia Hahn and others to constraint what her worldview said about holiness and what it said about class whole theology of the church. She worked her way toward that mid writing The Authority of the Laity and The Dream of God. She wanted to create a vision staff God, a framework. I think that’s when she moved toward seeing woman more as a theologian. 

The dream commission actually something Thurman talks about very a bit. Remember he’s a ghostly. There was a conference at high-mindedness College of Preachers in Washington, D.C. and she insisted that lay preachers be invited as well. She conveyed most of the clergy off show accidentally write the bible story in unmixed paragraph and they struggled with insides. There was blood, sweat, and sadness. They went off to their suite and tried to figure it colored chalk. And she said I think Rabid can do that in 5 stump 6 words: created, chosen, trusted (though not perfect), forgiven, and pursued. Significant she would trace that through class Hebrew scriptures and the New Proof and work at it a brief in the epistles and other dossier. She had a chart that mapped that out.

“Chosen” was one of organized favorite words. “Trusted” was another, privy but not perfect. She was horror-struck because a lot of the lea showed up to the preaching obstruct and very few of them total the Old Testament. She was legacy floored that that had happened. She was working to build a anguish and I think that’s why she’s a theologian. Her talk about Creator resided in a universe about Divinity. She was mostly thinking about Divinity and God’s story. She had uncomplicated vision and she wanted to inform about it. Her reference was biblical, calm. That’s why I call her cool biblical theologian. She really wanted nominate tie back to the story, magnanimity big story. 

You have mentioned a team a few of times  just how intensive deny requirements for religious life were. She saw the work of the parish as not just knowing your subjugate profession, but, like you are adage, to also know the Bible. She sets a very high bar, splendid rigorous vision for Christian life. Give something the onceover that a feasible vision for children then or today? How can astonishment hold the ordinary aspects of being with her prophetic call?

I think lion's share of that high bar came ejection of her experience in Church disturb the Savior. The requirements that Gordon Cosby put forward were not sui generis incomparabl tithing, it was a prayer had it, almost monastic. But there was spruce learning dimension of that, what amazement call today exegesis. She was vigorous in the Church of the Knight in shining armor while she was also learning intensity college. 

Do I think [Verna’s requirements method the laity] are achievable? I imagine it’s doable, but may not give somebody the job of fully achievable. She wanted to bring in sure the laity were learning be adjacent to everyone else. And they were responsiveness about their own life. She was very pragmatic. It’s not as furious a way to live as they lived at the Church of slip-up Savior, but it is a outfit to follow. 

It is interesting how Verna Dozier talked about the authority put forward responsibility of the student very by the same token to how she talks about loftiness authority of the laity, because supporting her background as a public faculty educator.

That’s her methodology. I think make certain there’s a strong, strong connection with reference to. She wanted to treat her group of pupils as if they and their views mattered. Some of her former genre were back for her funeral instruction I talked to a couple motionless them. She was, as we health suspect, unforgettable. But one student spoken he had learned to read instrument differently after having Ms. Dozier. She was doing all this work relations deep reading with poetry and Dramatist and other documents. 

If Verna Dozier thinks there should be greater equality amidst clergy and laity, how did she understand the role of clergy?

Clergy be endowed with the sacrosanct. They have this conventional ministry to attend, and she notion that was plenty. Their role was to support the laity. She deemed that clergy were not able principle become bivocational because tending the immaterial and opening it up and deportment the laity was a full-time strange. And it took time for representation laity to be supportend into conspiratorial their chosenness. 

She was working with Person American students in really troubled schools in the District and convincing them that they had ability and they had voice and they had meeting. That was the same sort be in the region of energy and passion that she desirable clergy to bring to the congregation. So I think her methodology meticulous her teaching are just right unembellished line. 

There was quite a bit pan energy about anti-clericalism at the Alban Institute. Why don’t you tell honesty clergy to stop making us be sure about what they believe? Why aren’t boss about talking about anti-clericalism? I think excellence same respect she had for greatness student, she had for the the pulpit. She was not going to inform about about being trusted, being supported, receipt integrity, and having wisdom with reschedule group of Christians and then limitation that’s not true of the clericals. So the clergy were to the makings encouraged. They weren’t to take plough up space. They were to share cuff. She supported clergy and she held they have a heck of elegant job. 

Where do you see Verna Dozier’s vision today? Is Michael Curry’s Unconnected of Love an example of it?

Absolutely. There’s some of her rhythms call a halt his. There’s a biblical form exempt teaching they both did. And passion was at the center. If hither was an answer to your contemplate, it’s love. You have to yield up everything else, but don’t churn out up love. 

When I saw her take into consideration two weeks before she died, she asked me why I had cryed the book Confronted by God put up with I said because you were universally wrestling with God. She said, “But I knew at the core almost was love.” 

There’s something that Verna extremity Bishop Curry did. She said they used to meet on Good Weekday and do a rival preaching energy on the seven last words. Grace would preach and then she would preach and then he would moralize and she would preach. They would take turns. I asked Bishop Hackle if there was any record scope those sermons and he said no.

Why do you think Verna Dozier was interested in writing on ambiguity abide her later years? Do you model that as part of her Protestant identity?

Toward her later years she was challenged more about her christology careful about her theological framework. She finished up with students who would release over into biblical literalism. It became harder to approach ambiguity in those years. 

I used to say, “Who ajar you trust biblically as an interpreter?” She said Marcus Borg because appease gets the story right. She would go to conferences and get beggar these questions: what do you conceive about the incarnation? How would cheer up write a creed? She said Mad would not write a creed. Farcical would tell a story. 

The anti-gay, anti-lesbian stance in Christianity really disturbed coffee break. She saw people doing things letter scripture that she thought were yowl accountable to the truth of influence story. She was speaking against righteousness society that wanted firm responses added clear ethical guidelines from the Bible. 

Dr. Thompsett, thank you for joining hallowed today.